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Sylvie Bermann was the French ambassador to the UK throughout Brexit. She spent a night with our Author at Giant Neil Mackay in Glasgow discussing Scottish independence, the UK leaving Europe, what she actually thinks of Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon, and the person she received to know whereas posted to Moscow: Vladimir Putin
Sylvie Bermann clearly relishes her newfound liberty. All through her profession, as one of many world’s main diplomats, she’s been a mannequin of tight-lipped reserve. Now, although, the previous French ambassador to Britain on the time of Brexit is letting the world know exactly what she thinks about Boris Johnson, Vladimir Putin, the UK’s choice to depart the EU, Nicola Sturgeon, and Scottish independence.
I spent final Sunday with Bermann, internet hosting her at Glasgow’s Aye Write literary pageant the place she unveiled her new e book, Au Revoir Britannia, an account of the Brexit years from a French perspective.
Previous to her UK posting, Bermann was French ambassador to China. After London, she was French ambassador to Russia between 2017 and 2019, the place she received to know Vladimir Putin. Bermann spoke at size to The Herald on Sunday each earlier than, throughout and after her Glasgow look, and subsequently corresponded offering further perception into her tackle world occasions.
Scotland and Europe
HOW would the EU react to an impartial Scotland wanting to affix? “We’ll welcome it,” Bermann mentioned. “It was harder through the referendum on independence due to the response of Spain [due to the issue of Catalan independence]. So at the moment possibly it wouldn’t have been so widespread however I believe the state of affairs has modified as a result of there’s been Brexit.”
As Scotland can be becoming a member of the EU as a brand new nation, Bermann mentioned: “In all probability there can be some negotiation, however [Scotland joining the EU] can be good for Europe. There’s no motive why if there’s this referendum which is accepted that we shouldn’t need to have Scotland – we’ll be very completely happy.”
Would becoming a member of be a simple course of? “The issue – nevertheless it’s your downside not the issue of the EU – is the pound versus the euro. The euro isn’t an obligation, in fact, however should you maintain the pound, what’s your relationship with the UK?
“Which will put stress on Scotland. It’s the primary downside.”
Bermann added “there are nations which don’t use the euro in the meanwhile … It doesn’t imply that Scotland would have essentially to undertake the euro however there must be settlement with the Financial institution of England if Scotland retains the pound.”
She mentioned: “There can be another negotiations however they need to be faster … some procedural situation regarding the ‘acquis communautaire’. Nevertheless it shouldn’t be too problematic.”
“Acquis communautaire” means “the physique of European Union legal guidelines”.
Would independence create an intractable border downside as Brexit did in Northern Eire? “Intractable, I don’t know,” Bermann mentioned, “however should you’re a member of the EU, then there’s a brand new border with England … It’s simply to guard the frequent market, it’s not punishment.” Would the Tory Get together be hostile to an impartial Scotland? “It depends upon what sort of Tories you’re referring to. The precise Cupboard – they most likely received’t be very pleasant.”
What concerning the level made by unionist events that there’s little distinction between Britain leaving Europe and Scotland leaving the UK? “It’s a distinct state of affairs … Scots needed to stay within the EU and that’s one of many the reason why you didn’t vote for independence in 2014, and so now for the reason that UK left the EU the state of affairs is completely completely different. Scotland voted for remaining and so that you’re most likely nonetheless livid.”
Independence
INDEPENDENCE, Bermann mentioned, “is a Sword of Damocles for the British, for London”, including: “It might occur, I don’t know, it depends upon the inhabitants right here. I perceive it’s 50-50 now, so it’s unimaginable to organise a referendum in these circumstances, and you may’t lose a brand new referendum.”
Bermann mentioned there have been discussions “that Eire will likely be first” – that Irish unity will occur earlier than Scottish independence. “I’m not studying the runes, however that’s a risk.” She mentioned the UK may very well be left as “just a little England, including: “That’s very dangerous. I bear in mind a Brexiter advised me ‘properly, we don’t care, we’ve at all times had issues with Northern Eire and even Scotland’.”
Brexit, Bermann mentioned, is all the way down to “English nationalism … It was about id, and that’s one thing which is harmful now … Obsession for id results in intolerance, xenophobia and racism. This id query exists in lots of nations however the query of English id was very sturdy through the marketing campaign.”
There isn’t a longer any risk of a federal Europe. “That is over – possibly 10 years in the past some folks anticipated to have a extra federal Europe. Now they realise it’s not potential, possibly not fascinating.” The French need to be French, and the Germans German, she mentioned. “To be European doesn’t stop us being French or German, however a federal Europe isn’t our path and there’s classes discovered from Brexit that possibly Europe must be extra versatile.”
Does a door stay open to Britain re-entering sooner or later? Bermann notes that French president Emmanuel Macron spoke lately a couple of European “confederation, he referred to it as a European political neighborhood for brand spanking new potential candidates, together with Ukraine”. Macron additionally talked about “the likelihood for individuals who left to rejoin”.
Scotland and Nato
CAN the SNP be part of Nato but additionally eliminating Trident? Highlighting the present risk from Russia and Nato’s revived function, Bermann mentioned: “I don’t know if there’s going to be an evolution or new pondering within the SNP nevertheless it’s actually a brand new state of affairs so we now have to contemplate that.”
She added: “You don’t should be a member of Nato to be a member of the EU.” Scotland, she mentioned, “might really feel higher protected” in Nato, however on the problem of Trident elimination complicating Nato membership, Bermann identified: “What’s attention-grabbing is that within the EU treaty you’ve article 42.7, which is even stronger than Article 5 [of the Nato treaty enshrining the ‘one for all’ principle]. In fact, you wouldn’t have the technique of the People however not less than there’s an obligation to react with all potential means by different members states.”
She added: “It’s not essential to have nuclear submarines to be a member of Nato. However, anyway, I assume that the UK would need to transfer Trident in case of independence.”
Brexit
WHAT occurs now that Britain is threatening to renege on the Brexit treaty it negotiated with Europe, over the Northern Eire protocol, which dangers undermining the peace course of?
“The place we’re going to from right here it’s very troublesome to know. Not solely Boris Johnson however all those that negotiated Brexit mentioned it was a ‘improbable settlement’. And so the 12 months afterwards they are saying it’s not implementable and we received’t abide
by it.”
Johnson was warned “on a regular basis”, Bermann added, “of the results” of leaving Europe and that there would “be borders” referring to Eire.
Macron, Bermann mentioned, has been very “vocal” in his criticism of Johnson. “Macron could be very pro-Europe,” she defined. “However past that he considers that treaties must be absolutely carried out. It’s a query of belief. No person compelled Johnson to signal this treaty. [He not only] negotiated and signed it however boasted about this ‘improbable settlement’. The UK is now, because it needed, a 3rd state and the EU wants to guard its home market. Different EU members and the People share this place.”
She added: “The British are at all times saying that there’s a ‘particular relationship’ between between the UK and US, however in actual fact the particular relationship is between the US and Eire. [The special relationship] is one thing which is seen from London, it’s not seen from the US. There’s a delusion about the way in which the UK is perceived. And what’s very unusual now. I appeared on the Built-in Overview, the technique in direction of the world of so-called ‘International Britain’ – there’s nothing concerning the EU. It’s as if it doesn’t exist in any respect. Effectively, we’re neighbours.
“I bear in mind throughout Brexit it was mentioned ‘we’re leaving the EU, not Europe’. In case you aren’t leaving Europe then it’s essential to have not less than regular relationships together with your neighbours – that’s not what occurred. In the interim the Europeans produce other priorities, but when there’s a breach of confidence or a breach regarding the Northern Eire protocol, that will likely be mentioned clearly by European establishments.”
Bermann famous that it “has already been mentioned” in America that any commerce take care of Britain can be jeopardised if the Good Friday Settlement was put in danger”. She mentioned: “I believe there received’t be this ‘improbable settlement’ in the event that they don’t respect their phrase on Northern Eire”. From the EU’s perspective, “if selections that are a breach of the treaty are taken there will likely be a response”.
She additionally pointed to studies that “in Northern Eire they’re doing higher than within the UK economically” as Ulster stays aligned to EU guidelines.
On the query of whether or not there are fears for peace, she mentioned: “There’s a danger of rising tensions.”
Bermann remembers Brexiters telling her they didn’t consider the UK would vote go away. “Since then,” she added, “they don’t know what to do.” Theresa Might “triggered Article 50” – to withdraw from the EU – “with no technique, and even Boris Johnson, he needed to be Prime Minister, that was his solely curiosity. I bear in mind Amber Rudd [former Tory Cabinet minister] saying … concerning the financial penalties of Brexit, ‘there’s one determine that pursuits Johnson and that is Quantity 10’. That was proper. And so no one knew what Brexit would imply”.
Bermann nonetheless can’t consider that Britain gave up property similar to the scholar Erasmus programme and refused to simply accept co-operation on safety.
She additionally notes “the irony” of British residents now in “a distinct queue” from “EU neighbours” whereas travelling in Europe, and ready alongside residents from “very faraway nations” like Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Japan. “It’s humorous, it’s very telling. It’s one other factor that’s so irrational in opposition to the EU, all the things which is European is simply unhealthy. So, I believe it wants a while to rebuild the connection with Europe.”
Did Britain change into a laughing inventory? “Sure, that’s true as a result of it was a self-inflicted wound, a type of suicide.”
Bermann remembers arriving in “cosmopolitan” London, and French “ministers went to London for some recipes for fulfillment after which out of the blue after that there’s this suicidal choice”.
Brexit, Bermann says, might have gone the opposite means. “With a greater stay marketing campaign it might have been received.”
Boris Johnson
BERMANN received to know Johnson. So what’s he like as a person? He’s, she makes clear, “an unrepentant liar”. However she additionally finds him “humorous [and] very pleasant”. The primary time they met, when Johnson was London mayor, was at a breakfast assembly when he gave a speech referring to historical Athens and Sparta. He made the purpose that “Athens – which was extra open and together with to foreigners – remains to be alive, and Sparta disappeared. So he didn’t seem at the moment to be anti-immigration.”
The connection between Johnson and Macron “turned very bitter. Macron is an actual European and he doesn’t settle for if you don’t respect your phrase”. Nonetheless, she explains that except there’s a disaster – as there’s now over Northern Eire – “no one is speaking about Brexit in Europe or the connection with the UK, and even the UK”. Johnson’s boasts about rushing up vaccines throughout Covid as Britain had left the EU have been unfaithful, Bermann says. The Brexit treaty solely “got here absolutely into drive on January 1, 2021. Till then, the UK was nonetheless underneath EU guidelines and the vaccine marketing campaign began in December … EU members have been slower at first as a result of they determined a typical order to ensure that smaller nations would even have entry to vaccines. Ultimately … the EU was exporting loads to creating nations and have become ‘the pharmacy of the world’. The demise toll within the UK was a lot increased than in EU nations”.
The demise toll is “most likely the duty of Boris Johnson”. Johnson coming into hospitals and shaking palms with folks throughout Covid was an emblem of “British exceptionalism as he thought it couldn’t occur to such an excellent nation”.
Second world battle
Bermann additionally pointed to “British exceptionalism” over the Second World Warfare. “We’re grateful to all these British troopers who went to France, nevertheless it’s not the UK alone which liberated Europe, however that’s the mind-set – that they know higher, do higher.”
Britain stays hung up on Empire, Bermann feels. Earlier than she went to Russia, some colleagues advised her: “There’s one factor in frequent between the UK and Russia – they assume they’re the one ones to win the battle … that Russia liberated Europe. It’s the identical within the UK. It’s based mostly previously and I don’t perceive why there’s a lot hatred in direction of the Germans for the reason that UK wasn’t occupied. We have been occupied and there’s not this response.”
She remembers listening to MPs speaking about Europe as “the Fourth Reich” and calling the French “cowards”, including: “It’s a query of the previous, not of the long run and even the current.”
Putin & Ukraine
BERMANN has met Putin “many occasions” with Macron, for lengthy “tête-à-têtes”. At one level, she co-ordinated political discussions round reintegrating the Donbas into Ukraine. Again throughout conferences in 2019, Putin “was in a negotiation temper”.
She believes Putin modified throughout pandemic. “He was completely remoted and afraid of Covid. He didn’t exit, and he stopped speaking with liberals, as he had contact with some liberals who say now it’s unimaginable to speak to him.”
Earlier than Covid “he was a troublesome man, however you can negotiate with him. It’s somebody who’s completely completely different now”. She pointed to Putin staging conferences the place he sits at one aspect of an enormous desk, or the place he humiliated his spy chief on tv. “That was horrible and he appeared to be in state of rage. He’s not insane however he’s obsessional about Ukraine and Nato … Psychiatrists possibly wouldn’t say paranoia nevertheless it’s a type of paranoid thoughts I believe. I wouldn’t say he’s a brand new Hitler, he’s completely different, however he’s harmful and we now have to face him, however not humiliate him, like we humiliated the Germans in 1918, as a result of he’ll come again much more harmful.”
She provides: “Russia received’t disappear. It’s going to stay as the biggest nation on the planet, a everlasting member of the safety council with nuclear armaments. The EU and Nato nations will proceed to share an extended border [with] Russia. It could be harmful to fully isolate Russia as a result of there will likely be an enhanced feeling of [a] besieged fortress and need for revenge. We should discover a modus vivendi and set up new safety guidelines. If Ukraine confirms its proposal of neutrality it needs to be assured internationally and it’s not potential with out negotiations with Moscow.”
Though she says she “understands” Putin’s view of Nato, the massive downside, nevertheless, is negotiating with a frontrunner “who lied”. She cautioned in opposition to a coverage of full reunification of Ukraine – significantly for Crimea because it’s “now part of Russia” – regardless of the battle going badly for Putin. With Putin having already “misplaced a lot”, it’s unlikely that negotiations would succeed if he “doesn’t get something. That’s not an ethical place – it’s realism”.
Western army campaigns additionally fuelled Putin’s ambitions. “Russia, in addition to France and Germany, campaigned in opposition to an unlawful battle in Iraq which has by no means been accredited by the UN Safety Council. The nation was bombed, there have been civilian casualties, however no weapons of mass destruction. In Kosovo additionally Nato bombed Serbia with out authorisation by the safety council. Russia resented it … Putin at all times refers to these examples as a breach of worldwide legislation and a coverage of double requirements by the West.”
Would Putin use nuclear weapons? She doesn’t assume so. “He’s not loopy, he cares about Russia.” However the invasion “was the worst political gamble”.
FM’s leaked memo
IN distinction to Johnson, Bermann refers to Nicola Sturgeon as “a girl of outstanding character”. Bermann was caught up in a row in 2015 when it was reported {that a} leaked memo claimed Sturgeon had advised Bermann that she would like David Cameron to win the Common Election over Labour, as that might assist the SNP. For the primary time, Bermann is now in a position to inform precisely what occurred. “The duty wasn’t the press however somebody within the British Authorities who leaked that intentionally and it was not true.”
Sturgeon “didn’t say” what was reported, Bermann explains. “I used to be asking everybody once I was travelling and assembly folks ‘who do you assume will win’. And she or he mentioned she thought Cameron will win. She by no means mentioned she needed Cameron to win.”
A French official in Edinburgh relayed the dialog inaccurately to British Authorities officers in Scotland. “It was a mistake of interpretation. I used to be livid.” It was later established {that a} member of workers for the previous Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael leaked the story, after Carmichael gave the go-ahead.
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